315: Atlantis: Legacy of the Lost Empire (Part 2)

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The episode opens with a reading from Plato's Timaeus describing the destruction of Atlantis. The hosts discuss it as the absolute primary and only ancient source for the Atlantis myth, with Tom Holland arguing that Plato used Atlantis as a political metaphor reflecting on Athens' position after the Peloponnesian War rather than as a literal geographical account.

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Referenced as one of Graham Hancock's books in which Atlantis plays a central role. The hosts discuss how Hancock's thesis—that an advanced civilization was destroyed and its survivors seeded civilizations around the world—derives directly from Ignatius Donnelly's 19th-century work, and they compare Hancock's ideas throughout the episode.

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Described as a didactic novel about an island of scientists in the Pacific who embody 'generosity, enlightenment, dignity, and splendor, piety, and public spirit.' The hosts explain how this novel directly inspired the founding of the Royal Society and represents a key evolution of the Atlantis myth—from Plato's cautionary tale to a model of scientific utopia.

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Described as a 'brilliant book about the Aztecs' by a previous podcast guest. Referenced in the context of discussing Aztec/Mexica migration from Aztlan and the question of whether this origin myth has any connection to Atlantis, as some 16th-century Spanish writers suggested based on phonetic similarities between 'Aztlan' and 'Atlantis.'

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Mentioned as evidence of Donnelly's pattern of eccentric scholarly claims—this book argued that Francis Bacon wrote Shakespeare's works. The hosts cite it to illustrate that Donnelly's credibility is undermined by the sheer volume of his outlandish theories, noting that 'in your life, you're allowed to come up with one theory of this kind.'

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Referenced when discussing what might have happened had the Nazis won World War II—specifically that Himmler would have poured resources into deep-sea exploration of the North Sea looking for Atlantis. Dominic notes this scenario is 'very Man in the High Castle,' referencing both the Philip K. Dick novel and its TV adaptation.

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Referenced as part of the genealogy of Atlantis-related ideas. The hosts note that More's 1516 work about a perfect realm appeared at exactly the moment when Europeans were discovering Mexico and the Maya, and that the concept of an ideal society in a distant land connects to the evolving myth of Atlantis as a utopian civilization.

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Referred to humorously as 'Gulliver's Troubles' by Dominic Sandbrook, who notes the amusing circularity that Bacon's novel about an island of scientists inspired the Royal Society, which in turn inspired Swift's satirical island of scientists in Gulliver's Travels—showing how the Atlantis concept kept feeding back into literature.

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Mentioned as the sequel to Donnelly's Atlantis book, listed among his publications to illustrate his prolific output of eccentric theories about catastrophism and ancient civilizations.

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Discussed at great length as the single most influential book on Atlantis after Plato's own writings. Published in 1882, Donnelly argued that Atlantis was a real place in the Atlantic where civilization originated, that gods of various mythologies were Atlantean kings, and that survivors colonized both the Americas and Europe/Africa. The hosts detail his specific claims about races, religions, alphabets, and metallurgy, noting that Graham Hancock's modern thesis is essentially Donnelly's framework updated.

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Published in 1841, quoted at length at the end of the first half of the episode. Martin's sardonic passage about scholars 'setting sail in quest of Atlantis with a more or less heavy cargo of erudition, but without any compass except their imagination and caprice' landing everywhere from Africa to Sweden is read as a witty summary of the futility of trying to locate Atlantis geographically.

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Referenced near the end of the episode when Tom Holland discusses how Plato's concept of philosopher kings from the Republic connects to Graham Hancock's thesis about wise survivors spreading civilization. Holland argues that Hancock's idea of 'nautical philosopher kings' scattering the seeds of civilization is actually quite Platonic in spirit.

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While not explicitly named as a separate work, the character Critias from Plato's dialogue is discussed as the figure who tells the Atlantis story and has to explain how he alone knows about it when nobody else has heard of it. The Critias dialogue is the companion piece to the Timaeus containing Plato's extended description of Atlantis.

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Mentioned twice as a humorous comparison—first when the hosts joke that Francis Bacon's The New Atlantis is 'not the Da Vinci Code' in terms of exciting characterization, and second when describing the Swedish scholar Rudbeck's methodology of starting with a desired conclusion and working backward to find supporting evidence.

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Discussed as a classic example of nationalist pseudo-scholarship. Rudbeck, the rector of the University of Uppsala in the late 17th century, conducted 'very detailed research' concluding that Atlantis was actually Sweden and its capital was Uppsala—his own city. The hosts use this as an archetypal example of how Atlantis theories conveniently locate the lost civilization wherever the theorist happens to live.